Cease! Desist! Even though I have cleverly left my email address off the recent columns, letters are still pouring in about reverence versus friendliness in church. Although I want to print everyone, we're going to have to change topics soon. As much as I want to hear from all of you, please wait till the next topic.

Till then, see what Meridian readers have to say:

I'm all for quietly visiting with other Saints at church, as long as it's done in the right place and time. We have to keep in mind that our meetinghouses are holy places — not as holy has our temples, to be sure, but our meetinghouses are set apart from the world, so to speak, for worshipping and sharing the gospel with each other and they deserve our respect. They are not social clubs.

Rules have to be established to preserve a spiritual environment where the Holy Ghost can teach us what we need to know. I have been in sacrament meetings that were so loud and chaotic, from lack of parental discipline, that I couldn't hear half of what was said in the meeting. It's important for children to be there, but it's also important that children learn to be reverent and obedient in the Lord's house. Parents need to be more considerate of others and teach their children to do so as well. I want to know why we did away with “cry rooms” for unhappy or unruly children.

Curious

I don't know what happened to cry rooms, Curious, but they seem to have gone the way of the dodo bird. Nevertheless, I can tell you the foyer in our ward is such a beehive of activity that I can't hear the other ward's sacrament meeting when I get to church early, even though the sound is piped into the foyer for everyone to hear.

I wanted to respond to the "Stifled in Springfield " comment.  

I see the need to bring reverence back into our sacrament meetings.  Yes, it is the most important meeting of the week.  I don't see anything wrong with quietly entering the chapel area before and leaving quietly after sacrament meeting.  We have been asked by the Brethren to allow the organist 10 minutes to play a beautiful prelude to allow members to get ready for the meeting. Why are our voices and mortal thoughts so important, that it can't wait 1 hour and 10 minutes? It's called self-control and reverence for our Savior.

We are all learning it.  No one is perfect.  But I believe as Moroni states, we are to come and inquire as to the welfare of one another's souls.  That is what I love about meeting at church.  We live long distances from the other members in our ward, so it is wonderful to see them on Sunday. I think quiet conversations (with giggles) can be had in the hallways and on our ways to classes. But as respect for our other brothers and sisters in their classes, we do lower our voices.  Why wouldn't you?

It is jarring to be at the perfect part in a lesson and feeling the spirit and learning and then having someone in the hallway yell or burst out in laughter.  To the ones in the classrooms, it is "jarring." That is the only word I can come up with.

I do have to say, that it is awkward for one adult to tell another adult to lower his voice.  We are adults; let's start acting that way and be reverent and respectful without having to be asked.

In regards to the bishop, he is the father of the ward and sometimes he'll ask some difficult and uncomfortable things. Maybe there are many "loud" voices in your ward.  How tiring it would be to go and speak to them all individually and ask them to lower their voices?  Maybe you could collect those that like to talk and agree to contribute to reverence in the chapel for sacrament meeting and lower your voices in the hallway.  

Remember that you do have choice.  You are choosing to follow the admonition not to talk in the hallways.  You probably could talk quietly and show them how it can be done.  Sometimes actions speak louder than words.  No one really wants to confront a bishop, but he sounds like he would be open to some options.

Be prayerful

A Reader from Southern California

Thanks, SC, for a thought-provoking letter. Yes, it is a matter of choice, isn't it? It always comes down to that.

I only wish that when voices were handed out in the pre-existence, I hadn't gotten such a big one. Even my “temple voice” is “megaphone.” Bummer.

Read on to find out how this topic has solved a mystery for one of our regular contributors. We'll let Liz tell the story:

You and your worms. Here we are again.

This question explains an experience I had when I was traveling.  I had to get home on a Sunday and as I was still in Utah and heading out, at a bit before 9:00 I got off the freeway to find a chapel and sacrament meeting with my son. We were about 10 minutes early.  No one spoke to us or each other.  No one smiled; no one made eye contact.  

By the time sacrament meeting started I was feeling seriously spooked.  One man passing the sacrament did smile a little, but my impression was that some terrible tragedy had occurred.  

When I left I asked someone in the foyer what had happened.  Had there been a terrible death or tragedy?  She looked confused and said nothing had happened.  

It did not feel reverent to me at all, it felt oppressive.  It was creepy.  I was so happy to get out of there and go home. I lived in Utah for two years, so I know this is unusual.  

I travel all over and I always go to church.  Usually someone greets me, often a member of the bishopric if it is a ward that doesn't get many visitors.  Usually the people in nearby benches smile or say hello.  This is done quietly and quickly.  In my current ward on our first day we arrived early and in the foyer were asked to dinner by members.  Since we had just moved and things were in boxes it was wonderful and we could not feel more welcome.  Our bishop greeted us and arranged for an interview in his office.  This need not in any way disturb the spirit. 

About five minutes before sacrament meeting starts the organ starts, everyone takes his seat, and we prepare ourselves for the meeting.

I can completely attest to the value of some of the skipped class conversations.  There have been sisters I otherwise could not reach at all.  Some people are insanely hard to get a hold of and many do not have any time at all in the week.  I totally agree that people should not be this busy, but some are and I am not going to judge people's decisions, especially if I do not know the circumstances.

Liz in Santa Monica

It's good to hear from you Liz, and I'm glad we were able to solve a mystery for you. I'm also glad you pointed out that it's not as easy to keep in touch with ward members away from church as a lot of readers have implied it is. Life is very complex these days.

I know what you mean about wards that don't talk at all. I once moved into a ward where nobody talked. Even when the women walked into the Relief Society room, took their seats, and stared straight ahead, waiting for the meeting to start. Nobody even smiled at anyone else. Then when it was time to sing, they sang their little hearts out — all umpty-ump verses of every single hymn. I felt as though we spent the entire meeting singing.

I happened to know one of the members of the ward, and when the meeting was over I leaned over and whispered to her, “I've moved to Stepford.” She had no idea what I was referencing, and I let it go.

One thing I did learn was that if you move into an unfriendly ward, all you have to do is wait awhile. Eventually enough people move in and move out that the complexion changes. It didn't take more than a couple of years until the ward was friendly and happy. Patience works miracles!

Read on for a few short notes that make good points:

Regarding the topic of reverence — perhaps it is the noise level that could be toned down and not the friendliness. We have several close friends in our ward as well but do not wait until sacrament meeting to interact with them. Dropping of a plate of cookies would mean more than a chat in the hall to a new move-in. Bishops need our support.  

Carole in Edmonton

Good idea, Carole? Who wouldn't be happy with a plate of cookies? Even people who can't eat them are grateful for the gesture.

As a priesthood leader I have seen too many members spending time in the halls instead of in the chapel for sacrament meetings and classrooms for lessons.

Now before you get ready to lynch me, I realize there are times when parents need to take family members out of the chapel, but they should return.

We should do our visiting before and after the block if possible. However there are times people need to take the time and stop and think before acting like "stifled" complained about.

I try to shake hands with everyone in the chapel either before or after sacrament meeting — especially any new people in attendance.

I love being in the temple and watching brothers and sisters speaking to each other in the soft voices they use. When we act in our chapel like we do at the temples we can still communicate and feel the spirit that we desire to feel.

It is a shame a few are spoiling things for others.

The Gsmyth 

Thanks for writing, The. Sometimes it's a real temptation to stay in the hall, and I used to do it in my younger days. As the years wore on, though, I started feeling like a hypocrite for raising my hand to sustain people and then not attending their classes. Once I became a teacher myself, I was grateful to know people weren't standing in the halls. It all comes down to perspective.

The sister wrote:

“I have close personal friends in our ward that I have not spoken to in more than a year — not because I haven't wanted to, but because the only time I see them is in the chapel, and we get herded out at different times so we never come face to face.”

You might call them on the phone.  You might visit them in their home.  You might arrange other ways.  The same thing applies for the new people, for the sister who looks upset, and for others.  It takes more effort, for sure.  Let's not kid ourselves — IT'S NOT THE SAME.  But, when you are up against a brick wall, I guess you cope with it the best you can, though things are much less than ideal.  

Also, in the long-range, this sister can look forward to the day when her present bishopric is released and perhaps then things will change.

(I know whereof I speak as I was separated from my friends when I was split off into a different ward.  Now we cannot visit at church.  So, I am left trying to follow my own advice.)

A Sister in Texas

I like your brick wall analogy, Texas , and I like that you're able to see both sides of the issue.  So many people can't.

It never occurred to me that Stifled's situation is similar to being in a ward that splits, but you make a point. Good luck following your own advice about keeping up with your old friends — and I hope you make a lot of new ones in your new ward.

I know I'm late in writing, but I have a response to some of the responses.
 
To those who say that we should do all of our visiting on our own time via email, telephone, or personal visits during the week, it's easier said than done.  In wards that take up large geographical areas, personal visits are difficult — especially if you do not own a car and the mass transit system isn't up to snuff. 

So why not email?  You can, but it's very impersonal, and often causes misunderstanding.  I've accidentally offended a few people via email because they misread my tone in the email.  So I should use the phone then, right?  Good idea.  Too bad I am actually afraid of calling people.  I'm always worried that I'm bothering people, that they don't actually want to talk to me and are just being nice, and there's no way I can tell because I can't see their facial expressions. 

That might be juvenile of me, and that's okay.  It's a very real anxiety that more often than not, keeps me from calling anyone I might like to get to know better.  (I make my husband call to invite families over to our house because I get so anxious about making the call myself.) 

I do recommend writing letters to show appreciation to people in the ward, but that's mainly because getting a real letter in the mail is such a sweet surprise — especially one that expresses gratitude for something you didn't even think meant anything to anybody.  So my point is, please do not judge people for wanting to visit at church — it may be their only conceivable (even if only in their minds) opportunity to do so.  We are taught to be compassionate. 
 
And about reverence in church, and I quote " Reverence is more than just quietly sitting :  It's thinking of Father above .  A feeling I get when I think of his blessings, I'm reverent, for rev'rence is love.  When I'm rev'rent it shows in my words and my deeds , the pathway to follow is clear.  And when I am rev'rent, I know in my heart Heavenly Father and Jesus are near ." (emphasis my own, from "Reverence is Love,” p.31 Primary Songbook ) 

I like to think that being reverent is thinking about our Savior and saying and doing what He would be saying and doing.  When the Apostles in Jesus' day wanted him to rest, they turned away the little children, but Jesus called them back, "Suffer the children to come to me."  

I'd like to think that Jesus wouldn't turn me away because I was talking and He'd rather rest.  I like to believe that He wants me around, despite my flaws, my weaknesses, and my sins.  How best do you "know in [your] heart Heavenly Father and Jesus are near?"  That is when you're reverent. 
 
And about the rules of the ward — I've always been taught that God will never force you to do anything.  He gave us free agency as a precious gift.  Therefore, I doubt that your bishop is forcing you to do anything either.  What you do, and how you behave anywhere, is always up to you.  And it's between you and God. 

So pray and decide what the best course of action is for yourself.  If you feel the Spirit better through expressions of love (visiting at church or whatever) rather than through quiet, then do that.  If you feel the Spirit better through quiet, then quiet yourself inside, and it will seem quieter around you as well.  Good luck, and thank you for sharing your concerns.  I think it's good for all of us to be reminded that not everybody is the same, and that we all need different kinds of help — and that's a beautiful thing because then we all get to do some growing.

Observer

Thanks for a wonderful, compassionate letter, Observer. This is one I'd want to frame, because it clearly shows an understanding of all sides of the issue.

As a parenthetical observation, you are not alone in your telephone phobia. Both my husband and I are telephone-phobic. I don't mind getting telephone calls, but making a phone call is one of the hardest things in the world for me to do. Clark feels the same way, so when “we” have to make a phone call, he has come up with a way to get around it. He dials the phone, thrusts it in my hand, and runs. Sometimes I have no earthly idea who's on the other end of the line when the phone is answered.

Because of this, your observation, “So my point is, please do not judge people for wanting to visit at church — it may be their only conceivable (even if only in their minds) opportunity to do so,” really struck a chord with me. None of us try to be difficult. We all try to be rational. It's just that sometimes there's a disconnect between reality and what we believe. We're all wired that way. It's called being human.

This next letter starts with a quote from President Hinckley:

"Socializing is an important aspect of our program as a church. We encourage the cultivation of friends with happy conversations among our people. However, these should take place in the foyer, and when we enter the chapel we should understand that we are in sacred precincts. ...  We do not ask our people to remove their shoes when they come into the chapel. But all who come into the Lord's house should have a feeling that they are walking and standing on holy ground and that it becomes them to deport themselves accordingly." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, May 1987)

If a prophet of God says foyers are for "the cultivation of friends," as long as it is done reverently, we should take his counsel seriously. Personally, if I were Stifled , I would pay no attention to the "herding" being done in the ward after sacrament meeting and, instead, get up first and make my way to the foyer so I could speak to whomever I need/want to speak.  I would encourage everyone else to do the same. (Truly, I don't think this would need the bishop's "permission!" And I doubt the Reverence Police would write me a ticket or throw me in jail!)

Sometimes it's more important to follow your conscience and follow the promptings of the Spirit, to find your way to those visitors, new converts, new members of the ward, friends, and those who need a hand of friendship for whatever reason, than it is to worry about what the Reverence Police will think.  Oh, and I'd be particularly reverent in the hallways when other wards are meeting.  It really is disruptive to the spirit of their meetings to have to listen to the noise of another ward in the hallways. Talk, but do it quietly.

Another idea: Write a little note to hand to someone as they leave sacrament meeting asking them to meet you in the foyer or outside the building after the three-hour block of meetings so you can visit. They'll appreciate the extra effort you made to reach them!

Laurie Taylor
Pensacola, Florida

Thanks for sharing that quote, Laurie. It's great to hear the words of President Hinckley. Maybe one day they'll design wards with a visiting area so people won't disturb other wards when they meet before, after, or between their meetings. I'm betting more people would get a use out of that than they get from the basketball court!

I'm 64 and a fifth-generation member of the Church.  I can tell you that I have lived in numerous wards in the south, east, mid-west and west.  I have visited many, many more wards in other countries.  Without a doubt, you have a very unusual ward and a dedicated bishop.  I crave being able to have just one Sunday in Sacrament meeting when people stay in their seats (excluding the removal of a crying baby or disruptive toddler) for the short time allotted.  

Instead I am easily distracted with all the whispering, bobbing heads; the children walking back and forth across the pews; school aged children and  teenagers who have to either go out for water or to the bathroom — even though they can manage to sit through a full-length movie!  I watch as a wife plays constantly with her husband's hair.  I watch as a mother feeds her child puffy "Cheetos."  I watch as a child is given an ink pen and a hymn book as a desk to draw pictures; with much ink going on the hymn book.  I really try to listen to the speakers and find reverence in their talks and in the beautiful music but seem to fall short of those goals most Sundays.

We have a friendly ward!  Many people stop and visit with each other with only one minute to go before the meeting begins and then hurry to find their seats as the organist finishes playing the prelude music.   After the sacrament has been passed, the doors are opened to admit 20 to 40 or more latecomers — the same people who just have a hard time with getting to church on time.  My husband is trying hard to learn to speak in whispers instead of his low male voice which he thinks is whispering.  Not the same sound. When I whisper a hello to members, I've had people stop and ask me if I'm feeling O.K. and I have to explain that I am just trying to practice reverence.  I've tried to stop children from running in the halls or screaming and shouting, only to have parents let me know they don't need help training their children.  

We are not a reverent people.  Oh, we are friendly enough in our own wards but I have been to many happy, friendly wards where people who knew each other took time to visit with each other but didn't bother with seeking out an unfamiliar face and extending a welcome.

This past conference a talk was given by one of the general authorities, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, about that very subject.  What is reverence, I ask you? My husband is a convert of 45 -plus years.  One of his sisters visited our ward after they had several discussions about the gospel.  She liked what she heard.  After her second visit she said she didn't want to go back because it was just too chaotic!  They had grown up in a church where reverence was stressed.  (Of course they had a nursery and so it was not nearly as noisy!) 

However, I do not believe our problems with reverence all stem from having small children in our meetings.  They are trained, after all, by us.  Because of the noise, sometime the still small voice of the Holy Ghost cannot be heard by the "just curious."

Maybe your bishop is coming down just a little too hard on your ward. I give him credit for trying to do more toward reverence and not less.  Maybe your members do not speak softly or in whispers.  Maybe there is just too much commotion and disturbance in the halls while other wards are trying to have a reverent meeting.  It's very difficult when there are several wards meeting in the same building to remember each other's needs.  Maybe you could call your sisters on the phone and set up appointments.  Maybe you can set up double dates with friends by phone or email.  You know, not I, what you can do to nurture your friendships and relationships and they don't have to include a lot of Sunday chatter.  There are ways! 

I don't know the distance of your ward boundaries.  Our boundaries spread out some distance, but my son, who lives in Arizona , has a ward boundary of only several blocks.  They find it a lot easier to have activities with other ward members.  I miss that from our time at BYU.  Our ward and stake boundaries have split and changes numerous times since we have lived in Charlotte , NC .  Many friends have moved around but we have friends in approximately 30 wards and three stakes.  We try hard to keep in touch by phone, email, and lunch and dinner dates.  It's not always easy, but we try to make the effort.

I hope your ward can solve your problems with too much reverence.  Maybe you can really listen and find if there are ways to help and yet enjoy time with your friends after church meetings.  Maybe your leaders will see the improvements and back off some.  I can't imagine it can not become more spiritual and as far as I know, being reverent or not, is not a question you have to pass to get a temple recommend. 

Of course, reverence  is required in the temple.  Come to think of it, our chapels are God's houses of worship also, and more reverence doesn't have to come at the expense of the love and friendship we have for each other.  We get lazy about it. We become complacent about it and we just find it to be too much work to change it.  Maybe your bishop means well and is doing the best he knows how.  Anyone who knows me, knows I have done my share of thinking I could improve each bishop I've had when if often is I who needs to look in the mirror.  So, I guess we either need to "raise their salary" or try to remember it is they who have been given the calling to lead us and guide us and it is not the easiest of jobs as we sometime have personality differences or just feel like rebelling.

Scarlett Ange   
Charlotte, North Carolina

What a good letter, Scarlett! I particularly liked the last paragraph. Most of our bishops do deserve a pay raise. I know ours does!

I think it's true that we become lazy about reverence. Well, maybe I should speak for myself — I know I become lazy about reverence, and I'm glad this topic has given me some reminders. It's especially gratifying to read a diversity of opinions, too, because when we're reminded that not everyone has the same sensitivities we do, we can be inspired to work a little harder.

Just last Sunday I was at a baptism where the program was in the Relief Society room and the baptism was all the way across the building. Because I have health issues, I stayed in the Relief Society room, and one of my friends — a good friend whom I never see except on Sundays — stayed in the Relief Society room with me so we could catch up on each other's lives. It was just the two of us in the room — well, the two of us plus the pianist who was playing hymns while everyone else was gone. I do hope we didn't offend her because we talked while she was playing, because I'm sure she thought we weren't listening to what she played. But the music really brightened my afternoon. As a little girl from our ward told me just a few hours earlier, “Music has a spirit. It's either a good spirit or a bad spirit, but it always has a spirit.” I hope the pianists of the wards know they're doing a service, even if ward members don't remember to tell them so.

Speaking of ward pianists who are seemingly ignored, this next letter reinforces that thought:

The letter about reverence at church provided good food for thought. I've found myself discouraged and even irritated at the noise level in the chapel in the minutes before and after sacrament meeting. It often feels like I'm at a basketball game, where everyone is trying to talk and be heard over the prelude music.

I spoke with a member of the bishopric about it. I mentioned a ward where folks were dismissed in groups (actually by the ushers, row by row). I didn't really like the idea, and was told there was even some caution against this practice in the Handbook, but it's difficult to see another way to encourage reverence.

At the time, I was working in the Primary and the bishop had expressed great concern over the lack of reverence displayed by Primary-aged children. It was almost laughable as I found myself hurrying to close the doors to the Primary room when the classes changed because the noise in the hallway was so loud! I wondered who needed to learn about reverence — children or parents?

I also remember when we lived in a ward that held sacrament meeting at the end of the block, but another ward followed ours almost immediately. Folks lingering in the chapel to visit became a problem, so they began dismissing us from the chapel straight into the cultural hall. We could visit while the curtains were closed and the next ward was able to begin their meeting. Even then, folks got too noisy and that practice had to stop.

We go to church to partake of the sacrament and to learn of Christ. It's important to use the moments in between meetings to fellowship, make visiting teaching appointments and all those wonderful things, but the truth is fellowshipping can happen when we're not at church — when we make that quick phone call to check on someone who was missing or when we send a note of thanks to someone for a wonderful talk, and maybe when we do it that way, it becomes even more meaningful.

I'm always intrigued when leaders try to teach by making new rules. Joseph Smith said, “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.” What would that look like in a ward struggling with reverence? Perhaps a sacrament meeting would be devoted to it — the musical number would consist of beautiful music on the organ, perhaps the person conducting would mention that being able to hear the music and feel the Spirit is an important part of preparing to partake of the sacrament.

Perhaps there would be prayerfully and carefully prepared talks about reverence. The Spirit would testify of the importance of reverence in our homes and families as well as at church. We would be reminded that we feel the Spirit most readily in the temple in part because of the reverence displayed there. Even the prayers that day would include a plea for help in becoming a reverent people. Perhaps those conducting auxiliary meetings that day would speak again of reverence and challenge class members to be especially observant of how they display reverence while at church in the coming weeks. Maybe they would call on class members in a week or two to share their feelings about how they felt as they considered this. Then ward members would recognize these reverent feelings and change their actions as needed — without any rules having to be made and thereby allowing folks to quietly, reverently and even joyously greet others when they come to church. I can feel joy and happiness in the temple while still being reverent. The same can happen at church.

I understand the feelings Stifled expressed, but I think reverence has gotten lost in our meetings. I'm sure Priesthood leaders are doing the best they can, but we need to work together to ensure we can truly worship together.

Kathleen Hedgecock
Peoria, Arizona

You make good points, Kathleen. Thanks for writing!

Our last letter today quotes one apostle and reveals a request from another, both of the topic of reverence:

I found an article last night that might help sum up some of the feelings that I read for the last couple of weeks about reverence.  I only included part of the article, but it's one that people could probably review on their own to help settle the matter in their own little heads instead of rationalizing their own behavior.

It comes from President Boyd K. Packer's Nov 1991 Ensign article, "Reverence Invites Revelation."  I quote:

Elder Bednar is coming this weekend. (It's been 25 years since our stake has had a general authority visit.)  When our stake president spoke with his secretary about Elder Bednar's needs, she said that the one thing that he really wants is for the people in the meetings to be spiritually prepared including being reverent (in this case, quiet) in the chapel so they can be ready to be spiritually fed. 

My thought:  Other than respecting the keys that Elder Bednar holds as an apostle, shouldn't all of our meetings be that way?  OK, I must be getting old and crotchety, but I always thought that most of the time, my own kids were usually OK.  I'm sure that I didn't catch many things that they did that were seen (or heard) by others since my husband and I didn't sit together very often, so I guess I shouldn't say too much about others, but there are those people that I'm sure don't even hear their kids!  I know that they don't take them out when they're screaming! 

Alright, enough already!

I always enjoy your column. Thanks for getting my heart pumping!

Carla in Colorado

Thanks for writing, Carla! There isn't a better authority on the subject than two apostles, and your quotes were good reminders.

Having sat behind you in numerous sacrament meetings, I can testify that your children never bothered me. They did amuse me on occasion, but they only distracted me when I was looking for a distraction. How I wish you'd come and visit! Meanwhile, thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Okay, readers, look for more letters next week. Meanwhile, please do not send any more letters on this topic. I don't think there's any way I'm going to be able to publish all the good ones we have already.

Until next time — Kathy

A great work is made out of a combination of obedience and liberty.

Nadia Boulanger