Meridian readers have come through again. You have flooded my email box with a ton of letters responding to “ Stifled in Springfield,”who wanted to find a compromise between having a reverent ward and having a loving one. She thought surely there could be a way to have both.

Interestingly enough, almost all of the letters in this week's batch were written by men. I have got to see about changing this column's name from “Circle of Sisters” to “Circle of Saints” so all will feel welcome to respond. Meanwhile, I'm glad so many priesthood holders have written in.

Now on to today's letters:

I've reflected on this topic over the years.  I've been in chapels where the camaraderie was interrupted by a firm scolding from someone who went to the pulpit and delivered a rather scalding reminder that we are in the chapel and should be reverent. (tee hee — get the irony?)

I also visited a ward in Cuernavaca , Morelos , Mexico , where we were warmly greeted in the chapel, hugged, guided to join another family.  The welcoming small talk was done in reverent tones.  People were hugging, greeting, introducing us to others and the Spirit was strong.  Wards in the United States should be so fortunate!

I remember reading in the Primary manual that reverence rewards should not be given out because it's difficult to judge if "silence" is actually reverent.  Maybe it is also difficult to judge if "conversation" is irreverent or of the Spirit.  I just noticed anew a scripture in the D&C yesterday — actually it was brought to my attention by the Spirit, probably having noticed that I was quietly sitting in the chapel noticing the shortcomings of those around me:  "Cease to find fault one with another."  D&C 88:124

Rats!  Foiled again!  But it is so much easier to look at others' faults and consider how they might fix them than to look inward to see how I might move closer to the Savior!  However, there it is, right in the wonderful "olive leaf" that is Section 88!  "Cease to find fault one with another."

I love the Spirit-led camaraderie between and after meetings.  Aren't we then at our most friendly and our most willing to serve, happily making appointments for visiting teaching, happily welcoming home teachers bid for an appointment, lovingly receiving promptings from the Spirit regarding those who need an extra hand and how we can serve each other and improve ourselves.  OK, let's do it in reverent tones, but let's not throw out the fruits of the Spirit by scolding each other.

Leah Thornley
Puyallup, WA

What a great way to start off this topic, Leah! I like the way you illustrated the idea that silence isn't necessarily reverence by pointing the finger at yourself. Isn't that the way things usually happen!

You know — hugs really can be silent. Whispered greetings really can be reverent. Thanks for some great food for thought.

Stifled sounds like a very warm, friendly person who treasures her interactions at church.  I think saying hello to someone in the hallways, giving a friend a hug or a handshake is appropriate (quietly).  Conversations are not appropriate.  

I have been in the hallway, right outside a classroom, and had someone come up to me and start a conversation.  I felt embarrassed because they were being very inconsiderate of the people in the classroom right beside us.  It was incredulous to me that they would be either so inconsiderate or oblivious to their own rudeness. 

Nothing is wrong with a brief hello and getting caught up with a friend (in a whisper).  Unfortunately, the conversations I have witnessed in the hallway (or gracefully bowed out of) were in a normal tone of voice.  The people who have behaved in an inconsiderate manner may have elicited complaints from other wards.  Where does that leave your bishop? 

I have other ideas for Stifled to spend time with her dear friends.  Perhaps she could invite her friends over for dinner, dessert, FHE, or they could just call, write, email.  Perhaps they could attend a fireside or homemaking together.  A few hellos in the hallway aren't really quality time anyway.  

The young mother who seems frustrated would probably benefit from a hug and an encouraging note written on a card.  I keep them in my bag for "emergencies."  I assure you, that note would be treasured for eternity.  It would probably go in the highest place of honor in her home (the fridge where she can see it several times a day).  She may even put it in her journal.

Why not brainstorm with your bishop.  Perhaps there is a room that is not being used and it could be designated the "visiting" room.  Mini-meetings could be held there (between 2-3 people) where people just pull a few chairs together.  The setting would be completely informal — just go and chat. 

This is an opportunity for ward members to be creative, loving, compassionate and polite.  

Deborah Saffell
Leesburg, Virginia

Thanks for your ideas, Deborah. I love your idea of keeping note cards in your bag for “emergencies,” and especially the idea that such note cards could even wind up in the home's place of honor — the refrigerator.

I notice we're in the same stake. I hope someone points you out to me one of these days so we can wave across the chapel to one another — quietly, of course.

I wonder at the wisdom of a situation where reverence becomes a fortress of solitude. While it is true that we attend sacrament meeting to partake of the sacrament and (hopefully) feel of the spirit, the ward is supposed to be a family to us in the gospel. Remember we are to be "fellow citizens with the saints." We are not zombies mindlessly going about our responsibilities without human contact.

I am fortunate to be in an extremely supportive and friendly ward. Our sacrament meetings are reverent, our bishopric and ward leaders respected and our membership energized by the opportunity to gather together each Sunday. Do we chat? Of course we do! We want to interact and know how each other is doing. We want to distribute and receive hugs and messages or love and appreciation.

Some of us are strong in the gospel and some are struggling. Weekly we seek to boost the spirits of those who are flagging under serious burdens. If we were not able to talk with one another, how could we meet one another's needs?

Now, I must confess that I am Sunday School president in our ward, and so there are issues of timing and the movement of people so that classes may have sufficient time for teachers to present their lessons (is there ever such a thing as enough time for a gospel doctrine class — I think not!). I regularly make announcements from the stand asking those who are not in gospel doctrine to go to their respective classes and encouraging members of the gospel doctrine class to sit nearer the front (and we all know how effective that is!). Nevertheless, people are generally considerate and we have excellent teachers so that, for the most part, people willingly comply.

They are not "forced" or "coerced" or "browbeaten," but simply asked politely after a few minutes of social engagement to go to their respective classes. Sometimes people choose to sit in the foyer and chat. I do not go around berating these apparently irreverent individuals because I know from my own experience that a few quiet words to a needy soul in the foyer can transform a life, heal a heart or avert a crisis.

If I may offer "stifled" a couple of thoughts. On the one hand the question came to my mind: "Why don't you call your friends on the phone and get together at other times?" Church is only three hours, after all. Perhaps you could share time together later on Sunday, invite friends over on Mondays for Home Evening (if you have them) or simply arrange to have lunch together.

On the radical end is "civil disobedience," where a group simply refuses to comply with the directives given — not in a mean-spirited or aggressive way, but simply to "not go" or to talk quietly with your friend and, if challenged, say that this discussion is important and point out that a conversation is not in and of itself an irreverent thing. Perhaps outside the chapel one can informally designate a "chatting area" where people can interact between or after meetings.

May I also suggest that the Relief Society president take the issue up with the bishopric at ward council meeting, pointing out that reverence is a goal now well attained but that people need to feel at one with one another. The spirit is about warmth, not coolness. How would the Savior feel if He appeared in your ward and, about to counsel a wounded brother or sister, was told to be quiet and go to class?

I understand that reverence is something that at times is only achieved with difficulty; however, love cannot be expressed in a vacuum.

I am old enough to remember church life before the consolidated meeting schedule and I wouldn't want to have to go back to church three times each Sunday. However, it always amazed me how members in the ward where I grew up would participate in Sunday School and then sit around chatting with one another for another hour or so, or even bring lunches and share a picnic between meetings.

Were these faithful saints being irreverent? No! We came to know each other really well — the ups and the downs — and they became dear friends with relationships that continue to this day.

Chatty from Melbourne

Thanks for writing, Chatty. It's a rare Sunday School president who can look at people who are skipping their Sunday School classes and understand that “a few quiet words to a needy soul in the foyer can transform a life, heal a heart or avert a crisis.” Good for you!

Your letter contained many great nuggets of advice. I'm sure Stifled will be glad to read what you had to say.

A few months ago, when I entered the church foyer, I was met with a blast of talking that sounded like Wall Street at closing time.  I was first, astonished at the irreverence, secondly angered at the lack of respect for the other ward members who were still meeting in the chapel.  Immediately, I sought a bishop's councilor and expressed my disdain for such behavior.  He indicated that it would help if the other ward would dismiss on time (their habit was to dismiss up to 15 or 20 minutes late).  I answered that it probably would, but that in the meantime we should be obliged to be courteous. 

Consequently, for a few Sundays, an announcement was made that if we wanted to talk in the foyer while the other ward was still meeting, we should do so in hushed tones.  You can't imagine what a difference that made — and it didn't stifle anyone.

A reader from Oklahoma

Thanks for your thoughts, Oklahoma . You're right; sometimes a compromise can be made by keeping things down to a dull roar in the foyer. It's easier said than done — and I know that I, for one, can certainly improve in that regard.

While I agree that people have gotten carried away with the reverence issue, I do feel that Church members do not either understand what "reverence" is, or they are just so caught up with their need to visit that they forget why they attend sacrament meeting. I have shared my concerns with lack of reverence in the chapel many times with our bishop, and have even spoken about the need to be reverent in the chapel, but to no avail. The spirit can not whisper to me when people are chattering in the chapel.

I do think that the ward leaders have gone to far when they limit visiting in the hallways. Saying that, people need to lower their voices and remember that even if they are not in the chapel, they are in the Lord's house. We have the same issues in the temple when people just can not talk quietly.

Perhaps people could take the time to visit after the block time in the cultural hall for a period of time before they go home. Bottom line for me is that I attend church to worship the Lord and to renew covenants that I have made with Him — not to hear endless chatter from other ward members. I do love our members, but we must do something to get back the spirit that is missing when we are not in tune. I believe that this subject was discussed in general conference.

The gospel is true, no matter what.

John C. Moody
Sandy, Utah

Thanks for your thoughts, John. Although I don't know whether your solution of visiting in the cultural hall after the meeting block would work in a ward where several wards shared a building, I can firmly agree with your last sentence. For all our human failings, the gospel is true, no matter what.

It is always a sad day when the pendulum swings. I'm not sure I completely agree with the divisional tactics of leaving sacrament in groups, but that's easy for me to say since I am not in a ward in which I have raised my hand to sustain that particular bishop in his calling.

Remember he has as much to learn as the members do. Perhaps this is a time to sustain rather than be critical. Obviously your temple recommend asks if you attend your meetings. Sunday and particularly sacrament is supposed to be about worship and reverence, and getting to sacrament thirty minutes early might help if you need to talk, and after church before rushing off as I see so many doing to peruse worldly interests can help the spirit hang around. 

Also catching up with good friends should happen on the other six days of the week rather than confining conversations only to a three-hour session. If we haven't any time during the week, then something is seriously wrong!

Wouldn't it be better to make a mental note of others who need spiritual uplifting with a special visit rather than a thirty-second dialogue? As I remember, Christ tried to keep the temple clean and went to sinners also in their houses to teach. I'm sure a ten-second reassuring word with, "I will come round tomorrow to see how you are doing," will be just a little better than a warm handshake and a quick goodbye till next week until you see someone else you want to catch up to!

Maybe the bishopric has gone a little too far, but maybe some introspection by the members is needed to figure out if there are any beams in their collective eyes. We can start by remembering the bishopric is asked to manage reverence to bring the spirit back into meetings to be able to help people spiritually.

We go to the meetings to be spiritually fed and also learn solid doctrine. There are many churches where people go solely to socialize! Yes it is good to be able to say hello reverently and give a warm focused handshake, but to detain people from their assigned classes may stop those in need getting the message the Lord has for them — lessons that were prepared and prayed about. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the chapel was like a temple and people made an effort to whisper so the children would see an example of reverence and respect?

Dave from.Australia

Thanks for pointing out, Dave, that the bishop and the members of any ward are in a learning curve, and that we should all be working together to progress. From my reread of her letter, it sounds as though “Stifled” has a great respect for her bishop, and it's my belief that she's trying to find a solution that addresses all aspects of the problem. Even so, your comments have merit.

Read on for a solution in a different vein:

I was once in a ward like this, where we were dismissed row by row and the Sunday School president was in charge of telling us which row could leave. I found the best response was to just get up and leave when I wanted to. We each have our agency and I was not about to be dictated to like this. Remember D&C 121:39:

It is important for each of us to resist any kind of “unrighteous dominion” when it raises its head. I also believe there is nothing in the handbook of instruction about treating ward members this way.

Russ from Utah

You're a braver man than I am, Russ. Although there have been times when I wished my husband were small enough that I could pinch him and then carry him out of a church meeting when he wailed, I'd never actually do it. When they were passing out spines in the preexistence, I must have been standing in the fat line.

Read on for an intriguing letter from someone who has a good point for all of us:

I can only imagine that if "Stifled in Springfield " had used her name, she might be visiting with her stake president real soon.

He might correct her lack of reverence (including failure to sufficiently reverence her leader), and her lack of humility in questioning the Lord's servant (i.e., her bishop), and her unwillingness to follow the man's (i.e., really the Lord's) counsel with gladness and repentance. Hence, the only correct response to "Stifled" in a patriarchal system is to repent and obey!

Conversely, there are others in the Church who would read "Stifled in Springfield 's" frustration and her bishop's action as symptomatic of why they feel "Stifled in Mormonism."

These members are more independent thinking souls who might view this reaction by the local patriarchy as an over-reaction, and as treating members like children by ever and over controlling their lives, all the while demanding conformity as evidence of worthiness.

To the one member, this patriarchal order feels safe...sounds comforting in expression from pulpits and prophets...and is safe in obeying...

To the other, it is but a reminder of why the "church" and the "gospel" are not always the same thing...and why teaching correct principles and allowing people to govern themselves is often easier to talk about than to allow...

An observer in Zion

Thanks for your observations, Observer. You make valid points.

Although I am not in a position to judge Stifled's motives (and indeed it appears from her letter that she has a great love and respect for her bishop), we should all step back and look at ourselves occasionally to see if we're falling short. Are we stirring the pot, or are we honestly trying to make things better?

Just this week I read about a prominent church member who had decided to up and leave the Church. I'm sure he didn't go to bed one night with a strong testimony and just wake up the next day and decide to bail. These decisions are made one small step at a time. In these last days, we have been warned that Satan will “deceive the very elect.” Nobody is immune.

I liked what you wrote about “teaching correct principles and allowing people to govern themselves is often easier to talk about than to allow.” How true that is!

Here's our last letter for today. I saved it for last because it echoes the sentiments of the first letter in the bunch. (We writers like to tie things up in neat little packages when we can!):

This looks like a case of the letter of the law overwhelming the spirit.  Reverent is not the same as quiet , though silence sometimes, but not always, accompanies reverence.  In this case, my judgment would be that stringent enforcement of quiet as a surrogate for reverence is counterproductive and leads to the opposite of what should be sought, which is a setting where the Spirit has a chance to prevail. 

If people are silently steaming about the inability to connect with fellow Saints, how can the Spirit be present?  Surely Saints can figure out a way to strike a proper balance.  It sounds to me like both the bishop and Stifled could give a little and achieve such a balance.  Greetings inside the chapel can be done quietly (e.g. a handshake, hug, a whispered hello, or a written note) and there is no reason why members have to be restricted to conversations just before, after, or in between meetings.  If the halls are not appropriate for visiting, how about the cultural hall, or outside the building (weather permitting)?  The reality is that it is hard to connect deeply with all of one's friends within the meeting block, or to get to know new members of the ward in that limited setting, whether or not the reverence police are vigilant.  How about inviting a few of the people you couldn't connect with at church to your home for dinner, dessert, or FHE?  Or try the telephone or a personal visit.  There are lots of ways of staying in touch, even if it isn't easy to do so at church.

Floyd Jensen
Salt Lake City, Utah

Good ideas, Floyd. We can all do with a little compromise in life, and the idea of inviting people over for visits sounds downright sociable to me.

By the way, I really liked your reminder that reverent and quiet do not necessarily equate. It seems to me that Jesus' actions showed that often reverence comes in the form of compassion — the sort of compassion that is seen every week in our ward communities. I'll have to think on that one.

Meanwhile, thanks to all of you who have written again. We'll continue this fascinating subject next Monday.

Until next week — Kathy

The world is imprisoned in its own activity,
except where actions are performed as worship of God.

Bhagavad Gita (Hindu scripture)